I agree that Jer 1:5 does not establish the Mormon view of premortal existence.
We Mormons have to be careful not to claim that the scriptures are saying more than they are saying. Many verses in the Bible can be cited in SUPPORT of Mormon doctrines, but few, if any can be cited as PROVING Mormon doctrines. Yet many Mormons act as if they do.
In this sense we are very similar to our Evangelical neighbors who similarly often proof-text Bible verses to make points that they do not make - for example citing Genesis 1 in support of creation ex nihilo (even though the scripture passage doesn't even come close to demanding that read).
Or quoting Matt 22:23-30 as if it proved that family bonds will dissolve in heaven.
Read it again. It only says that people won't get married in heaven. It never said there wouldn't be married people in heaven.
Thanks for the elucidation. Fair enough on Matthew 22:23-30. Curious about Mormon doctrine on this point: If I understand correctly; some will be married in heaven and some will be eternal bachelors/bachelorettes. Is it then the married ones who will populate the planets over which they will be gods? If so, what will the bachelors/bachelorettes be doing?
Reading the Matthew 22:23-30 scripture, I believe Jesus is answering that there will be no marriage, at all, in the after life. Looking at it in context, the question posed is regarding a woman who was married on earth and who her husband would be in the after life. Jesus wasn't answering a question about marriages performed in the after life.
I would say that in Mormon theology it is only those who are sealed to a spouse (as God the Father is) who qualify to inherit all the Father has. Union of man and woman is an essential characteristic of deity in Mormon teaching.
But reducing "all the Father hath" to "populate your own planet" is hardly a fair summary.
Unlike you guys, we Mormons never claimed to be limited to a few ancient texts.
So, why would I need to present positive evidence from the scriptures?
But if you'd like one Mormon scholar has actually written some stuff on this. You can read the article here:
http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/MotherInHeaven.pdf
It identifies the mother goddess as the Old Testament figure of Asherah (who appears about 40 times in the Bible - usually mistranslated as "groves"). She was worshiped in Hebrew culture until the period of 800 to 600 BC - when she was phased out. She was even a part of Hebrew temple worship at one point, and some scholars (both Mormon and non-Mormon) consider the "Wisdom literature" (such as Proverbs 8) to be about her.
Mormon scholar Daniel Peterson has drawn connection between Asherah and the vision of the Tree of Life experienced by Book of Mormon figures Lehi and Nephi. You can read that article here:
Seth, Can you double check this link: http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/MotherInHeaven.pdf
I cannot get it to open and I have tried two computers have a city apart. Also, other websites that reference the article also link to the same URL and it will not open.
Thanks, Yes, I can other Abode docs to open. I have spent a few days laid up in bed and have not gotten around to this until now. I will have to spend some time catching up and reading up.
For now; let me mention that when “a few ancient texts”—by which I think you meant to say the Holy Word of God—affirm monotheism (as does the Bible, the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, etc.) and later Mormon prophets say that monotheism is false, we are not merely dealing with a few ancient texts versus latter day Mormon revelation but we are dealing with contradiction.
The Bible is wrong to affirm monotheism because latter day Mormon prophets affirm polytheism, the Book of Mormon is wrong to affirm monotheism because latter day Mormon prophets affirm polytheism, the Pearl of Great Price is wrong to affirm monotheism because latter day Mormon prophets affirm polytheism.
It is not simply a matter of more revelation but contradictory revelation.
Pardon, I did not mean to change the argument. Since there are no biblical references to the existence of more than one God (with the exception of references to false gods, which is what any god but the one God are) it seemed relevant to point out the fact that modern Mormonism contradicts the Bible, the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, etc.
It seems that you are now engaging in semantics.
Monotheism denotes the affirmation of the existence of only one God—period. Not one god per universe or one god and his wives.
The Bible affirms that before the one God no other god was formed and that none would be formed afterwards—this contradicts Mormon theology.
What is consistent in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon is the existence of one single God with no exceptions anywhere and not that we have one will and purpose guiding the entire universe with which we can participate.
Call Mormonism polytheistic or better yet, henotheistic but is most certainly is not monotheistic and you, should, known it.
Which is why I'm also aware that the same logic that makes you "monotheist" in spite of three gods, can also do equally well at making me a monotheist, in spite of even more.
Ok, it took quite a while but I see the problem now. You have been misinformed about biblical/Christian theology. The good news is that we live in an information age and it will not require much to correct the error into which you have fallen. Please begin by reading the series to which I referred you as that will lay out the case of the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Trinitarians are monotheistic because we believe in only one single God. Mormons are henotheistic because they believe in many gods.
In this sense the Bible agrees with the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, etc. and the modern Mormons disagree with the Bible, the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, etc.
So provide the information then. You haven't done so yet. Just bare assertion.
I've had fully ordained Berean ministers, Catholic theologians, Protestant apologists, and countless others explain the Trinity to me. I doubt there's much you could add.
But the same logic behind the Trinity works for adding on additional members. There's really nothing stopping us.
Of course Mormons don't really buy into that notion of sharing the same "substance." But I've never yet met a Christian who could explain what the heck "substance" is supposed to mean anyway, so no big loss.
Please recall that I directed you to the hyperlink for the information about the Trinity and then also referred you back to the hyperlinked information.
What is stopping you from asserting that there are many gods is that in doing so you would be contradicting the Bible, the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, etc.
On the other hand; since the doctrine of the Trinity is monotheistic Trinitarian doctrine is consistent with the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
This is the intro but from it, you can follow the segments that are posted about every 4 days or so. You will see that the Bible applies attributed of deity to the 3 persons of the Trinity while maintaining that there is only one God.
Get my ebook, "The Apocryphal Jesus," here
I agree that Jer 1:5 does not establish the Mormon view of premortal existence.
ReplyDeleteWe Mormons have to be careful not to claim that the scriptures are saying more than they are saying. Many verses in the Bible can be cited in SUPPORT of Mormon doctrines, but few, if any can be cited as PROVING Mormon doctrines. Yet many Mormons act as if they do.
In this sense we are very similar to our Evangelical neighbors who similarly often proof-text Bible verses to make points that they do not make - for example citing Genesis 1 in support of creation ex nihilo (even though the scripture passage doesn't even come close to demanding that read).
Or quoting Matt 22:23-30 as if it proved that family bonds will dissolve in heaven.
Read it again. It only says that people won't get married in heaven. It never said there wouldn't be married people in heaven.
Nice try though.
Thanks for the elucidation.
ReplyDeleteFair enough on Matthew 22:23-30.
Curious about Mormon doctrine on this point:
If I understand correctly; some will be married in heaven and some will be eternal bachelors/bachelorettes.
Is it then the married ones who will populate the planets over which they will be gods?
If so, what will the bachelors/bachelorettes be doing?
aDios,
Mariano
Reading the Matthew 22:23-30 scripture, I believe Jesus is answering that there will be no marriage, at all, in the after life. Looking at it in context, the question posed is regarding a woman who was married on earth and who her husband would be in the after life. Jesus wasn't answering a question about marriages performed in the after life.
ReplyDeleteI missed the question Mariano. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteI would say that in Mormon theology it is only those who are sealed to a spouse (as God the Father is) who qualify to inherit all the Father has. Union of man and woman is an essential characteristic of deity in Mormon teaching.
But reducing "all the Father hath" to "populate your own planet" is hardly a fair summary.
Seth,
ReplyDeleteAs per Jesus' words; the angels are not married and neither will we be--and neither is God.
The Bible is monotheistic and the Book of Mormon is monotheistic thus, there is no one to whom God is married (except symbolically to the church).
aDios,
Mariano
"and neither is God."
ReplyDeleteAnd just where did you pull that from?
The Bible and the Book of Mormon.
ReplyDeleteaDios,
Mariano
Argument from silence my friend.
ReplyDeleteGood point, God may also have three dogs :o)
ReplyDeleteFine; please present your evidence from the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
aDios,
Mariano
Unlike you guys, we Mormons never claimed to be limited to a few ancient texts.
ReplyDeleteSo, why would I need to present positive evidence from the scriptures?
But if you'd like one Mormon scholar has actually written some stuff on this. You can read the article here:
http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/MotherInHeaven.pdf
It identifies the mother goddess as the Old Testament figure of Asherah (who appears about 40 times in the Bible - usually mistranslated as "groves"). She was worshiped in Hebrew culture until the period of 800 to 600 BC - when she was phased out. She was even a part of Hebrew temple worship at one point, and some scholars (both Mormon and non-Mormon) consider the "Wisdom literature" (such as Proverbs 8) to be about her.
Mormon scholar Daniel Peterson has drawn connection between Asherah and the vision of the Tree of Life experienced by Book of Mormon figures Lehi and Nephi. You can read that article here:
http://mi.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=9&num=2&id=223
You might also check out some of the work of non-Mormon biblical scholar Margaret Barker.
So if you want scriptural evidence, there you go. Enjoy.
Seth,
ReplyDeleteCan you double check this link:
http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/MotherInHeaven.pdf
I cannot get it to open and I have tried two computers have a city apart.
Also, other websites that reference the article also link to the same URL and it will not open.
aDios,
Mariano
The link is to a PDF document. Do you have the free Adobe Reader?
ReplyDeleteThe best alternative I can offer is this link here:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Nature_of_God/Heavenly_Mother
The link you are having trouble with is Kevin Barney's article (the first of the recommended reading list towards the bottom).
Or if you want, you can just email me and I can try emailing it to you.
ReplyDeleteThanks,
ReplyDeleteYes, I can other Abode docs to open.
I have spent a few days laid up in bed and have not gotten around to this until now.
I will have to spend some time catching up and reading up.
For now; let me mention that when “a few ancient texts”—by which I think you meant to say the Holy Word of God—affirm monotheism (as does the Bible, the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, etc.) and later Mormon prophets say that monotheism is false, we are not merely dealing with a few ancient texts versus latter day Mormon revelation but we are dealing with contradiction.
The Bible is wrong to affirm monotheism because latter day Mormon prophets affirm polytheism, the Book of Mormon is wrong to affirm monotheism because latter day Mormon prophets affirm polytheism, the Pearl of Great Price is wrong to affirm monotheism because latter day Mormon prophets affirm polytheism.
It is not simply a matter of more revelation but contradictory revelation.
aDios,
Mariano
Mormons are monotheistic in the sense that we have one will and purpose guiding the entire universe.
ReplyDeleteWe are invited to participate in that.
And that stance is thoroughly consistent with both the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
You've shifted the target.
First you were asking me to provide scriptures that specifically endorse a particular theological point.
When I said we are not limited to those scriptures, you then CHANGED your argument to claim that I was saying the scriptures contradicted that point.
I said no such thing. The scriptures do not contradict the Mormon notion of theosis.
Pardon, I did not mean to change the argument. Since there are no biblical references to the existence of more than one God (with the exception of references to false gods, which is what any god but the one God are) it seemed relevant to point out the fact that modern Mormonism contradicts the Bible, the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, etc.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that you are now engaging in semantics.
Monotheism denotes the affirmation of the existence of only one God—period.
Not one god per universe or one god and his wives.
The Bible affirms that before the one God no other god was formed and that none would be formed afterwards—this contradicts Mormon theology.
What is consistent in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon is the existence of one single God with no exceptions anywhere and not that we have one will and purpose guiding the entire universe with which we can participate.
Call Mormonism polytheistic or better yet, henotheistic but is most certainly is not monotheistic and you, should, known it.
aDios,
Mariano
If there is only one God, then why do you, as a Christian, worship three?
ReplyDeleteCome on Seth (my younger son’s name, by the way) you know better than that—do you not?
ReplyDeleteIf you do not then please check out the series beginning at this link.
aDios,
Mariano
I do know better than that Mariano.
ReplyDeleteWhich is why I'm also aware that the same logic that makes you "monotheist" in spite of three gods, can also do equally well at making me a monotheist, in spite of even more.
Cheers.
Ok, it took quite a while but I see the problem now.
ReplyDeleteYou have been misinformed about biblical/Christian theology.
The good news is that we live in an information age and it will not require much to correct the error into which you have fallen.
Please begin by reading the series to which I referred you as that will lay out the case of the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.
Trinitarians are monotheistic because we believe in only one single God.
Mormons are henotheistic because they believe in many gods.
In this sense the Bible agrees with the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, etc. and the modern Mormons disagree with the Bible, the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, etc.
aDios,
Mariano
So provide the information then. You haven't done so yet. Just bare assertion.
ReplyDeleteI've had fully ordained Berean ministers, Catholic theologians, Protestant apologists, and countless others explain the Trinity to me. I doubt there's much you could add.
But the same logic behind the Trinity works for adding on additional members. There's really nothing stopping us.
Of course Mormons don't really buy into that notion of sharing the same "substance." But I've never yet met a Christian who could explain what the heck "substance" is supposed to mean anyway, so no big loss.
Please recall that I directed you to the hyperlink for the information about the Trinity and then also referred you back to the hyperlinked information.
ReplyDeleteWhat is stopping you from asserting that there are many gods is that in doing so you would be contradicting the Bible, the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, etc.
On the other hand; since the doctrine of the Trinity is monotheistic Trinitarian doctrine is consistent with the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
Here is the link again: READ ME :o).
This is the intro but from it, you can follow the segments that are posted about every 4 days or so. You will see that the Bible applies attributed of deity to the 3 persons of the Trinity while maintaining that there is only one God.